Can A Jury Stay Unbiased?

A CEO is killed on a New York sidewalk, a suspect is arrested after a multi-day manhunt, and the public reaction splits in a way that should worry anyone who cares about justice. Some people see a cold-blooded murder. Others see payback for a broken, for-profit healthcare system. We sit with that discomfort and ask the question that would hang over any courtroom: if you were on the jury, could you separate your own insurance anger from the facts of a violent crime?

Nancy Alleyne

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancy-a-aa244848/

Then the conversation shifts from courts to character. Using the quote “Treat others as you would like to be treated,” we explore small, daily choices that reveal how rushed and angry society has become, from holding the door to how people drive and speak to strangers. Dr Alleyne also shares her path from New York to probation work and into teaching, and why curiosity about crime can become a lifelong call to serve the public.

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Transcript

Show Opening And Theme

Voiceover 0:03

Tales from the Wild. Stories from the Heart. A journey into the mind and soul of fighter business professionals where they share their vision for the future. And hear from a different non-profit organization every month as they create awareness of their goals and their needs. Dive into a world of untamed passion. As we join our host, Shireen Botha, for this month's episode of Friends from Wild Places.

Shireen Botha 0:34

Well,

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Shireen Botha 0:35

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Welcome And How The Show Works

Shireen Botha 1:45

Welcome back, listeners. You are listening to Friends from Wild Places with myself, Shireen, and my most amazing co-host, Tanya. Tanya, welcome. How are you today?

Tanya Scotece 1:57

Thank you, Shireen. All is well. I'm super excited for today's podcast. Um, here at Friends from Wild Places, we feature one guest per month. Been doing that for quite a few years now. And we also have a paid wall where you can actually subscribe for as little as five dollars a month if you want raw, unedited content where Shireen and I dive deeper into subjects that maybe you would like a little bit more information on. So perhaps there's a subject that you are just maybe reading about and you say, you know, hey, can you guys do a podcast on this? Or even just a one-to-one between Shireen and I. But today we're super excited uh for our guest, which I will let Shireen introduce. Um, we're super excited as we know we are the crime enthusiasts, and we actually have a criminal justice professor with us this morning. So, Dr. Nancy Alleyne. Uh, but I will let Shireen do the formal introduction.

Shireen Botha 2:54

That's so exciting. Um, yes, listen, this is a little bit different this time around, right? Uh we wanted to, just because we are such true crime enthusiasts that we love every month, you know it. We always talk about some of the true crimes that are happening right now in our courts today. And so we just thought this will be extra exciting if we have someone that's in the criminal justice society, uh in the community themselves, uh and teach other great minds about this topic uh would

Meet Dr Nancy Alleyne

Shireen Botha 3:30

be such a great uh podcast. So we're excited, and I'd love to introduce Dr. Nancy Alleyne, who is a dedicated criminal justice educator and scholar with over two decades of experience in higher education, public service, and community engagement. She earned her PhD in public safety criminal justice from Capilla University, where her research focused on the intersection of female mental illness, substance use, and crime. She also holds a Master of Science in Criminal Justice from Long Island University and a Bachelor of Arts in English, criminal justice from the State University of New York in Albany. Dr. Aileen currently serves as a criminal justice faculty member at Miami Dade College, the same college that Dr. T, our very own Dr. T, lectures, where she teaches a wide range of courses at both the associate and bachelor's levels. She is actively involved in curriculum development, student advising, and institutional services through multiple committees. So welcome, Nancy. It's so good to have you.

Nancy Alleyne 4:47

Thank you so much, Shireen. Thank you so much, Tanya, Dr. T for this invite. I am so excited to be here. I'm so excited for the opportunity to speak about crime. That is my passion. So thank you so much.

Shireen Botha 5:04

It's it's our pleasure. Our pleasure. Um and we've got we always bring in on such great leaders here, listeners. You know, if you want to go and check out uh last month's episodes or another great leader, uh Neela and Nicholas, uh, go check those out if you

The CEO Shooting Case Summary

Shireen Botha 5:20

want to listen to some more. But yes, Nancy, it's so great to have you here. That said, let's chat about some of the true crimes, right? That's going on in the court systems. Uh, this one is quite interesting as well. Uh, I'll tell you a little bit so that we can all get up to speed on this case specifically. So in December 2024, United Healthcare CEO Brian Thomson was shot and killed outside of Midtown Manhattan holiday hotel. But that that's, I mean, listeners, if you've gone and actually seen the recording, it's quite frightening. Uh, they caught it on the CCTV. It was so uh hectic to see. But the masked shooter fled on an e-bike, leaving behind words like delay and deny carved into the showcasings. Following a massive five-day manhunt, police arrested 26-year-old Luigi Mangoni, an Ivy League graduate from a wealthy family. After an eagle-eyed employee spotted him at a Pennsylvania McDonald's, the investigators recovered a 3D printed gun, a silencer, and a handwritten notebook outlining a manifesto against corporate health care corruption, all of which, a New York judge ruled, can be officially used as evidence in the case. So instead of generating widespread public grief, the case sparked intense debate as online communities crowdfunded over $1.5 million for last name right, Man Mangioni. I believe so. Manioni's defense, right? So his defense, fearing him as a modern-day Robin Hood fighting a broken system. Okay, let's get into this, right? Um, I get it, I understand it. Uh from both sides of the coin. But yeah, as I said, uh let's let's chat. I have a question, ladies, for both of you. Um if you were the jury for this specific trial, do you think you could truly separate your own frustrations with insurance companies and corporate greed from the literal

Can Jurors Truly Be Unbiased?

Shireen Botha 7:45

facts of the violent crime? Or is it completely unbiased jury actually impossible here? Is it completely impossible to have an unbiased jury? So what do you think? Who wants to go first, Tanya?

Tanya Scotece 8:03

All right. Well, so first of all, I'm super excited again. I just want to reiterate my enthusiasm for having Dr. Nancy on this morning for our show and for the podcast, and hopefully getting her message out and sharing a little bit of her journey. So regarding this case, Shereen, to ask your question. So I, you know, I'm only speaking from my perspective. I personally feel that I could be an unbiased juror if it was appointed to this case. Um, I don't have a TV, as many of our listeners know. Um, so if you know, if I'm called as a juror um for jury duty, I always feel that I have the best interest at heart. So for me personally, I do feel that I can maintain um truly unbiased regarding of whatever belief I may have personally. And how about you, Dr. Nancy?

Nancy Alleyne 8:57

Um, I have the same belief as well. I um I really would like to believe that I could do that. And sit on a jury, is this particular jury, and be totally unbiased and look at the facts alone. Um that's not to say that the evidence that will be presented may have uh emotional effect, but us putting all of that aside, right? You're looking at the facts. The facts have to be presented in a way. Um, rule of law has to stand, and based on that alone, I do believe I could um be unbiased in this particular instance. Yes.

Shireen Botha 9:46

Yeah. Because guys, let's just be real here. When it comes to the medical aid, health insurance, they've always been difficult to pay out. The long processes that we have to go through when it comes to our claims to these businesses. They are at the end of the day just a business, right? We've had these gripes and grimes and irritations with them because why can't they just pay out? I pay a monthly premium to them every single month, and I haven't had any claims, and now finally I've landed up in hospital, and I really, really need them to cover these massive expenses of x-rays and MRIs, and now they don't want to pay out. I get it, I get it. We've all been there in some way, shape, or form. We've all been there, but they are a business at the end of the day, and quite frankly, too many people are getting on this bandwagon to try and take justice in their own hands and shoot or kill somebody that they think is evil or in the wrong, or based on your opinion, or maybe multi-millions of people's opinions that that person is evil

Corporate Healthcare Anger And Empathy

Shireen Botha 10:55

and needs to die. You know, I know that's dramatic, but isn't that what's just happened here? That's exactly what's just happened here.

Nancy Alleyne 11:03

You know, and to your point, Shereen, um, many people look at what you're just saying um and see the injustice in the health insurance agency, see the injustice in the pharmaceuticals um companies, see the injustice in the hospitals, you know, because these entities at the end of the day, like you said, are businesses, they're for profit businesses. So, how do you make a profit? You have to deny some claims because if you don't deny those claims, how are you going to meet your bottom line, right? Because it is for profit. And society sees this, regular people see that, and they understand that. And because of that, there's frustration, there's anger, and they think that um it shouldn't be that case. And in many other countries, it's not that case, right? Here in the United States, it's for profit. It it you have the health insurance, the pharmaceuticals, and the hospitals all working together. They're all working hand in hand together. And um, you and that's where the frustration comes about. So when this incident happened, you see many people are like, okay, so what? Yeah, okay, good. You know, so the empathy is lost, the empathy is gone because they themselves were in a situation where their coverage was denied. So they can totally understand. Um, I believe you said earlier, Shereen, from the Robin Hood perspective, that Manioni um did this, you know, trying to create a sense of justice, you know, but taking it into your own hands, I it's never worked, it's never gonna work.

Shireen Botha 13:00

Just let the justice do their thing. You know, the justice courts uh are there for a reason. Um that's what they stand for. It's to to hold people accountable for um for their crimes that

Why Vigilante Justice Fails

Shireen Botha 13:15

they have committed. So yeah, I and I just see it so often more and more these days, where there are people that think that they're gonna take the law in their own hands and kill people off that they think deserve to be killed off. So um, we should stop doing that, guys. Seriously, let's get off that bandwagon. ASAP.

Nancy Alleyne 13:36

Right. And there's other ways that we can show our outrage, right? There's protests, there's signing petitions, there's calling your congressperson, your representative, there's sit-ins that can happen. There's other things that can be done um as a community other than taking someone's life.

Shireen Botha 13:59

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I agree with that. Um thanks guys. This

Better Outrage Than Violence

Shireen Botha 14:05

is we we could go on forever about this specific case, but I'm gonna move on. But it's just an interesting very interesting case. Um and I'm not sure where it is currently. Uh, but I think it's in September this year. That's the next um the next date that's been that's been set for the the next court date. So I'd be interested to see what's next um in this in this case. So with that, let's let's get more into you, Nancy, because I'm excited just to hear more about your opinion and just where you've come from. But before we go any further, quote of the day. Quote of the month, should I say, more importantly, quote of the month is from our very own Nancy. And we've heard this quote

Quote Of The Month Explained

Shireen Botha 14:55

before, listeners, but it is so true, and we should be living this out on our day-to-day lives. And it is treat others as you would like to be treated, treat others as you would like to be treated. Nancy, what does that quote mean to you? Do you want to elaborate some more with us?

Nancy Alleyne 15:15

Sure. Um, that quote is something that I live by. Um, many people today are self-absorbed, they are into themselves. Um, it's all about what they have, what they don't have, and forget the next person, screw the other person. Um if we would take that quote, if we would live by treat others as you would want to be treated, I believe that we would have a different society, right? We're looking out for our neighbors, we're helping one another, we're speaking to the other person the way that we would want to be spoken to, right? We're entreating the other person the way we would want to be entreated. So if we would do those things, society would be so much better, right? Communities would be so much better. That's not to say that people don't do it, but I think a lot of times, because the way our society is, it's about, I gotta get mine, right? And if I get mine and you don't get yours, so what? Get out of my way. And we really have to start and really take a look at ourselves, how we speak to one another, how we treat one another, and ask that the question, would I want to be treated the same way I'm treating somebody else? And oftentimes it's no.

Tanya Scotece 16:44

Nancy,

Everyday Courtesy And Social Anger

Tanya Scotece 16:45

if you don't mind sharing, are there examples that you could maybe one or two that you could give as far as you know what you see out in you know in your environment, your world, your day-to-day, that maybe you know, somebody didn't do something. Because I want I'll share. I have I have one that is just like it's been it's been on my mind, okay. So I'm gonna bring it up to all of you. So I find it interesting. So, you know, obviously, you know, located in Florida, right? Miami area. So, you know, you go to the store, you go to the grocery store, you go to the pharmacy, whatever. I find it fascinating that when people open the door, okay, they let themselves in. And I could be literally, without exaggeration, maybe two feet behind them. I mean, obviously personal space. I mean, I'm not, you know, hogging their space, but I'm like literally like right behind them for the door, and they won't hold it. Like many of them, this is not, you know, I mean, and I'm not saying everybody here, please do not misunderstand the the the question, but it's happened to where like and it and I've seen it with younger folks, older folks, and I just don't know. It's like because I will share with you when I'm going in, I literally hold the door open and allow other people in, and then I will follow. So I to me it's it's like a wow, like when somebody doesn't even quote unquote hold the door and you're within, you know, three, four feet at most. So what's your take on that? And what maybe you share what what bothers not bothers you, but you know, what do you what have you experienced lately that can relate to your quote?

Nancy Alleyne 18:21

To your point, Tanya, I I've experienced that as well. And I I chuck it up to maybe cultural um or upbringing. Um, you know, we're we're seasoned women here. So we're from uh a generation where we're we were taught, right, to look out for the other person and to respect the other person maybe a little bit more than the the current generation or newer generations, right? So that could be uh a reason why that is as well. And it could be a cultural thing as well. You know, Miami's a melting pot, so we have so many different other cultures coming here. It could be, I don't know. Um it annoys me as well, Tanya. It does. Or when you hold the door and someone doesn't say thank you, right? It it's just it's just common courtesy. If you held a door, wouldn't you want somebody to say thank you and acknowledge the nice nicety that you just did? Um driving on I-95, right? That alone, treat others as you would want to be treated, right? Do you cut people off? Um, going into the stores, um, standing online, right? Um uh customer service, being cursed out. You know, it it's just we're we seem to be so angry all the time as a society, and we seem to be so rushed as a society. And those two things together oftentimes um doesn't allow for us to stop a moment and think of the other person because we're rushed. They move on my way, right? Or we're angry, you know. I've had a bad day, so therefore I'm gonna take it out on you. But because we don't stop and we don't think and we don't process who we're feeling, how what we're doing, how that may affect someone else, it's just a vicious cycle, right? You you do this to me, so now I'm my feelings are hurt, so I'm gonna do it to the next person and then the next person. And so it's just a vicious cycle. But if we would stop, think about how our actions will

Do Good Without Expecting Thanks

Nancy Alleyne 20:35

affect the next person, I do believe that we would have better communities.

Tanya Scotece 20:39

Right. Yeah, yeah. How about you, Shereen? Thank you and thank you for sharing, Nancy. Thank you for uh elaborating. How about you, Shereen? What's your do you have any of these uh you know experiences?

Shireen Botha 20:51

I think I wish that quote elaborated a little bit more. Not elaborate, but I wish it was two parts to that quote. And the second part being don't expect anything in return. So meaning, I really believe we should absolutely do to others as you would have them do to you, but don't expect them to do the same back. You know, you worry about yourself and your behavior because that's the only thing you can control in this world right now is your own behavior and how you react to others. And so if that means I have to open that, because truly, ladies, those things irritate me too. And if I have to keep on opening that door and allowing the person right that was on top of me, right behind me to go in first or whatever the case may be, a hundred times more, I'm gonna still do it. Um even with no thank yous for the rest of my life. And yes, I'm not saying that I'm not walking away irritated because how I mean, thank you. Thank you is all I'm asking. Um it's only human to feel that way. So yeah, Tanya, it's a great um it's uh you know great topic to talk about when it comes to that quote. And thank you, Nancy, for sharing uh

Nancy’s Story And Career Path

Shireen Botha 22:15

just what this quote means to you. Uh, but if I can just ask you, just for the listeners that are listening, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, a little bit of your background so we get to know who Nancy is?

Nancy Alleyne 22:29

Okay, no problem. Um, I am originally from New York, uh, born in Brooklyn, raised um in Queens, worked in all the boroughs. Um my parents are immigrant Caribbean immigrants, and education, education, education was not even an option. It was what I was gonna do as far as obtaining, right? So going to school was not an option. Um being better than they were was not an option, right? So for me, um education was was the key and it was instilled in me. And also hard work, right? They believed that if you worked hard, if you did the right things, then prosperity would follow, good things would follow. So that has been my foundation all my life, and I still hear it in my ears even today. Um, what else could I say? I I love animals, um, I love sunsets, moon rises. Um, I got into the criminal justice field, um, primarily because of the, well, I don't know, maybe because of my mom. We would watch these soft, and I call them soft crime shows like um Matt Lock, Murder She Wrote, um, all of those crime shows back in the, I believe it was the 80s, right? And and as a little girl, I'm watching this, and I'm thinking to myself, I don't know if these are little girl thoughts, but I'm thinking to myself, didn't they know they were gonna get caught? Why would they think that they could do this and then not have consequences? I don't understand, right? I don't, like I said, I don't know if those are little girl thoughts, but those are the thoughts that I had. And because we watched a lot of these crime, soft crime shows, it really piqued an interest with me about the criminal mind, right? So, why do people commit crime? Um, what are the driving forces behind that? So, as I got older, that question just really stuck with me, right? So I wanted to really find out the answer to that question. And I believe the only way that I could do it was to pursue um criminal justice career um to get an answer, really, right? So that's why my undergraduate criminal justice, my master's criminal justice, PhD criminal justice, just in order to find out why people think that they could commit a crime and get away with it. What is the process? What drives people to do that? Um, and I I think that's how those those shows, those early shows, that's what really drove me to do that. Um, I'm also oh oh sorry, go ahead.

Shireen Botha 25:37

That's interesting, just that's interesting. I mean, you speak about that as you were a little girl and you were already having these thoughts in your mind. Was that something you always wanted to get into, or was there another you know, career that you wanted to get into um instead of? Was this a second kind of idea, or was this always it? This was it.

Nancy Alleyne 25:59

I with those shows that um I would watch with my mom. Um and and then I found myself watching them by myself. So I don't I can't remember, I can't remember any other field. My mom was a uh uh ICU nurse. You know, maybe I thought about nursing in the medical field, maybe I did. I don't recall. I don't remember, maybe I did. I have a lot of doctors and nurses in my family. Um, so it would not have been a stretch for me to go into the medical field, but I can't remember ever thinking about doing that.

Shireen Botha 26:43

That's so interesting. That's interesting that it was just, you know, since a little girl, that was it, you know, this is what I want to do. This is just it.

Nancy Alleyne 26:51

Exactly. Exactly. I I it it it is fascinating when I think back because it's not the first time I've been asked that question. And even my students wanted to know how come I, you know, my undergrad is criminal justice and English, my master's criminal justice,

Probation Work And Becoming A Professor

Nancy Alleyne 27:10

you know, why the it it was it's just because when you have a love for something, when you're fascinated by something, you just want more of it. And I think that's where I was, and I think um, I know what propelled me to want to teach was sitting in a my undergrad class at um SUNY Albany. Um, it was 150 of us in the classroom, and you know, the professor is way down there, and I was bored. I was bored, bored, bored, bored. Right. Um I I couldn't imagine having a class of 150. I could not imagine that. Um, but to that point, I I sat there and I said, I could do this better. You know, I yeah, yeah, I did. I was what, 18, 19? I was like, I could do this better. And I think, and I remember saying this to myself, and I think that put me on the trajectory for teaching. But first I said, you know what, I need to go into the field. I need to go into the field, get some experience, then go into the classroom because I felt, and this is no knock on anybody else, I felt that having field experience, real world experience, added to the knowledge, the book knowledge that you would bring, right? So you would get um uh an uh maybe an added advantage, right? Having been in the field. So I was a probation officer. Well, my last assignment was probation, um, which I enjoyed, I loved. Um, I would have still been in New York as a probation officer if New York did not have snow. Um, but it had snow and I I couldn't take it anymore. So, you know, to do what you had to do. So once I left probation and came to Florida, um, I said, Do I want to do probation again? Or is it time to teach? Um, and it was time to teach. And I had a fantastic mentor who um, Dr. Michael Whalen, who took uh a chance on me because I did not have any teaching experience coming from New York. And he said, You can do this.

Part Two Tease And Closing

Nancy Alleyne 29:35

I said, Really? Okay. If you believe I can, I know I can. And he took a chance on me, hired me, and I've been teaching ever since. And that's since uh 2004.

Tanya Scotece 29:48

What an amazing journey, amazing journey. Tune in next week for part two from Friends from Wild Places.

Voiceover 29:56

You've been listening to Friends from Wild Places with Shireen Botha. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast from the links to catch every episode and unleash your passion.